MORGANE: 0:00

The entry level for the woman formation is being able to boot on your computer. I mean, isn't that insulting? Because you are expecting things for the man from the other formation and us, we need to have a lower entry level because, you know, we are just girls. That's awful. How could you do that? Representation is super important, and the fact that we do exist in and of itself all is already something that can help. My sister learned what job I was making, and right now she is starting to code to see if it fits her. I don't think she would have had this idea had we not discussed it. If I want to be hired, I want to be hired for my skills. Not because I am a woman. I don't want to be accepted into a formation because I am a woman. I want to be accepted into a formation because I have the skills and I have the capabilities.

OLIVIER: 0:50

Hi everyone and welcome to this new episode of Planet Odoo. Today we share with you the second part of the discussion we had on Twitch. If you didn't listen to last week's episode, I highly recommend you do first. And if you already did, stay with us because we'll jump into the conversation right now. Ready? Let's go. And welcome back for the second part of this episode. So before getting back into the subject, I would just like to remind you that there is a chat next to the stream and that you can ask your questions in it. So feel free. And of course we will answer them. Uh, I would like to, uh, start back on the question of, of parity, uh, in the development world. Uh, and, um, how would you so the parity, we are not there, I think. I think it's pretty clear. Uh, how would you improve it? Uh, what would be for you the ways of achieving that? Uh, and first of all, should should we really try to, to improve it or is it better like that? I don't know, you tell me. Uh.

CAMILLE: 1:50

I think it's better to have, uh, more women in dev and what we can do maybe it's presenting to children, uh, a bit part of codes or ludic parts of doing it. Uh, I think that..

OLIVIER: 2:03

So trying to put to,.. So that the children put their hands in it a little, well, not a little earlier, they put their hand in it, period. Because children don't do that. At least in Belgium we don't have that.

CAMILLE: 2:11

Uh, and maybe with like a game thing like Minecraft basically, and redstone, because if people know.

OLIVIER: 2:19

Indeed it can be something. I mean, you can do very, very fun things that are very, very mainstream, uh, with, with programming in general. And so finding cool projects to do at school for, for teenagers or even younger children, uh, it's possible. Uh, so.

MORGANE: 2:38

And it doesn't even need to be a long process because, I mean, it took me two minutes to realize that's what I wanted to do in my life. You don't need a whole week on the developing because you need to teach people to develop, but at least know it exists, and we can do it and see that, yeah, it's not a man job. That's all it needs to...

OLIVIER: 2:59

So why is it seen as a man's job then? Uh, because that is interesting.

MORGANE: 3:04

Social bias. It's logical.

OLIVIER: 3:05

More details? Yeah. Uh uh, that's my impression as well. I, um, I have a feeling that it's often seen, uh, well, when I talk to people that are that don't work at all in IT, uh, often you feel that when they. Well, either they really don't know what you're doing, so no idea at all. So it's not helping. Or they think that it's something very mathematic with a lot of logic where you're doing computation on, you know, alone in your, in your garage at night, uh, with only only doing computations like that and be like super complex things and very a lot of math and that's what everybody thinks. And maybe so it's because of social bias, of course, because math there is no reason that math is is a is a man's thing, but it is seen as a man's thing often. And so so it's development, I think, uh, and indeed I think, as you said, uh, putting that into the hands of younger people so that they can play with they have to play with it because it's cool. It's not you can it's you have to play with it. But you, you will maybe you will realize that. Oh, okay. Uh, actually it's not it's not as I thought it would be. Because on the other hand, math, it's taught at school as well, and it doesn't really change the image people have of it. So is it enough? Um, would it be enough?

MORGANE: 4:20

It's a first step, and I think it's the one that would have the, the most impact. I mean, teaching children that, okay, uh, there is this job and this job because it's not only for development. I mean, there is a lot of jobs that are a lot of people don't know about or have a misconception about that we could just teach at, uh, at school, like, not take a whole month to teach all these subjects, but at least a bit. And then another thing that I think would help is having more women developers that explain their jobs to children, because then it will break the bias of it's a man job, because if it's a woman that tells you, okay, I am doing that, then maybe other girls can do it too. And in fact, this could help just to to realize that, oh, it's not only something a man could do, because if you are seeing a woman doing doing it for a woman, it's easier to then make the link to okay, then maybe I can do it also.

OLIVIER: 5:17

Also, uh, without uh. So this is very true, but, uh, with staying with the big cliche that math is something for men and that's it. Uh, if people don't want to change their mind on that, I mean, uh, um, doing that at school, the programming at school would probably so you would have group projects or things like that. And. Probably it would help also because it would demystify, uh, what the job actually is, and people would realize that it's not okay. So you can spend some time thinking about very complex, complex algorithms, whatever architecture, you know. But at the end of the day, it's way more than that. And all the creative part is, is totally lost when people just see it as math. Uh, actually.

CAMILLE: 6:02

And it's more logic than math, but..

OLIVIER: 6:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed.

MORGANE: 6:06

And problem solving and creativity and just fun because coding can actually be really, really fun. There always be parts that you don't like that much, but I really feel like this is a job where I get to my computer and I'm excited to work today. Yes. And I'm excited to solve today's problem in my own way. Being creative, being the. I think this is a way that I can link it to my job. I love to understand something and to make it understandable for others. And this is what I really liked. Uh, you told me that this was the creative aspect for you. Not only the creative. I mean, I love the challenge when I am in a bug that I need sometime days to figure out why and how and what should I do. And then suddenly you are like, oh, it's for that. And then you are happy for a whole week because I understand. So...

OLIVIER: 6:58

It's true that it's something that I think is, is necessary to, to, to to point and to really tell people, uh, the job is a very rewarding side, uh, you know, side. It's, it's when something is not working, it's your fault. Okay? It's true, uh, most of the time, like 99% of the time. So it's, it's like on on certain aspects it's like the most frustrating job of the world. But on the other hand, uh, when something is working, it's because you understood it. And that is, that is nice. Uh, and just being able to understand the whole causality of something and be like. So for example, I yesterday I was working on some, some, some issue and a customer ticket and there is a bug in the, in the accounting report somewhere that I don't understand. Uh, and I've been spending hours yesterday on it. I will be spending hours today on it because it's really mystic. But, uh, I know that when I will find the answer, hopefully, uh, eventually, uh, that would be. That's going to be great because I'm going to be like, wow, that is a nice one. That is really a nice one. Uh, and and that thing that this problem solving side is really, I think, super interesting.

MORGANE: 8:01

And all those satisfactions are non-gendered. And I think we should really put this because, yeah, math is for boys, logic is for boys. First of, No. And then there are other kinds of accomplishments and pleasures to be found in this kind of job. And I think, uh, for me it's also like you can another nice picture. You can change the world, uh, because what you do has importance. Like, for us, for instance, we are working in a mostly open source program, meaning that what you are doing, maybe you don't see people using it, but you know that a lot of people can use it and it helps them. And you're like, oh, okay, I am part of that. And for instance, I have two friends that are working at the Red cross as developers. And I mean, they are changing lives and they are just behind their computer because like me, they don't like to speak to customers. Uh, but you don't have to speak to people to be able to help them.

OLIVIER: 8:53

Talking about customers and talking with, uh, with customers, we have a question in the chat that is actually fairly interesting. So I'm putting it on the screen. Just work. It works. Uh, so do sometimes clients, uh, or or externals talk to you differently when they realize you're a woman? So maybe it's more a question for you, actually, becausecontact with customers?

MAURINE: 9:11

I don't think so.

OLIVIER: 9:13

Is there a difference?

MAURINE: 9:13

I don't think so. I never encountered that. But maybe that that's real. I don't know for that. But yeah, most of the time I speak to customers with emails. I do not call them. Basically, I sometimes call them when they have children.

OLIVIER: 9:29

You could see a difference in the way they write to you or in the way they.

CAMILLE: 9:32

I don't think.

OLIVIER: 9:33

You know, if they are worst case situation, you could have someone being like, oh, it's a woman. She doesn't know what she's talking about and be like, really? More, more, well, stricter with you than with men, for example.

CAMILLE: 9:44

Yeah, it no, it doesn't happen to it didn't happen to me until now, but I, I think I, um, there is a colleague that had this situation and yeah it wasn't great.

OLIVIER: 9:56

Mhm. Mhm.

CAMILLE: 9:56

Mhm. Yeah. She isn't a developer but. Yeah.

OLIVIER: 9:59

Yeah. But it's not, it's not generalized but it's sometimes happened. I've heard a few stories as well of, of sometimes on customer tickets, people being like well but uh and then you see what they are writing. It's not, it's not something you have to interpret. It's explicitly.

CAMILLE: 10:11

Yeah. It was really explicit for her.

OLIVIER: 10:14

So okay. But so it's not not everyone. And so we can say that well there is a problem with that. But at least it's, it's not all the time. Yeah. That's a good thing. Okay. Uh, another question in the chat, uh, to go back on what we were saying, uh, what would be your advice for a young woman, uh, wanting, wanting to to to start in development to learn, uh, how it works? Uh uh.

MORGANE: 10:38

Oh. Well.

OLIVIER: 10:39

How to start?

MORGANE: 10:39

Just the. Same as actually everybody else. Just try it. Just try it and.

CAMILLE: 10:45

Be yourself.

MORGANE: 10:46

Yeah. On the internet, you can find a lot of, uh, courses to start learning code. So for the basics, this is a very nice. And I mean, if it suits you or it's okay for me, I had to join some formation because, I mean, money is something that's useful in this world. Yeah. And you can just not search for a job and learn by yourself and expect people to be like, oh yeah, that's okay. She's doing your stuff in her side. We won't bother her. So I needed to join a formation just to be paid to learn because I didn't get the choice. And then at this point, you have to search for, uh, for courses that teach, uh, codes. Uh, for me, the first course I joined wasn't very good. I mean, it was a very bad one. Uh, the thing is that when I joined the information, uh, day about the course, it seems nice. I mean, we had to take a logical test and things like that. And the first day of the formation, I arrived, and I realized that every girl that was, uh, that were a woman, woman that were in the information day, except one that already said that she wouldn't join because she has to take care of children. But every other girls, they were there, they were at the formation like every girl did succeed and only a few men. And that's fishy. Uh, I mean, and I wasn't very lucky in.

OLIVIER: 12:12

So you started investigating that.

MORGANE: 12:14

I didn't investigate, I didn't need to investigate.

OLIVIER: 12:19

What did you discover then?

MORGANE: 12:21

The thing is, I was kind of unlucky because I started my formation like, five days after, uh, there was the Covid and we couldn't continue the formation. It was online at that point. And the thing is that this formation only go did go to the piece of the slower students. And I mean some of the women that were there. It's sad because it's not because they are women, but they were a means to do some coding thing. They weren't logical at all. It wasn't their thing. They didn't. I guess at least they didn't continue in the code because it wasn't their stuff. And I was like, okay, so this formation took them because they were girls. They were they were women. Um, and the men you they only took the the one that succeeded the most at the logical test. And it was very hard for the formation because then we had to go to the slower piece. And that's not a thing you want to do when you have something that doesn't understand, because it's not her world and it will never be, and she will be great at other stuff.

OLIVIER: 13:29

It's really bad because if you start doing this kind of things. So first of all, it's unfair anyway.

MORGANE: 13:34

It's totally unfair.

OLIVIER: 13:35

And plus, uh, it's a bit like you were saying, actually, you will have them women that if they well, if they know that and they will realize that they were taken just because they were women, I mean, it's it was pretty, pretty obvious. Uh, they will be like. But do I really have the skills for that? Uh, and they will feel like they need to prove that. And that is not comfortable.

CAMILLE: 13:55

You don't want to feel like an imposter.

OLIVIER: 13:57

Sure.

MORGANE: 13:57

And as I said at the time, I was in a very bad mental place. And so I did the jam that. Okay, they took me because I'm a girl, not because I'm worth it. And I didn't realize that. In fact, uh, even if I didn't choose just the woman, I would have been in the formation. Because the logical side I know. No, I know that I have it, but at the time it was very hard because I didn't learn anything in the course. Like after four months, I searched, uh, a job elsewhere. It was Odoo, but it was. Random actually, because I was just like, okay, I am not learning anything. Uh, because I had to follow the, the course. And then in the evening I was studying a bit and then I tried to join Odoo. But after four months without really doing some code, uh, it was a bit not successful, but that's normal because, uh, when I did try to join Odoo at the at that point for the first time, I did some real coding exercises and I was like, oh, so that's what coding is about. And it was like a revelation, like, okay, I really like that. I want to continue. But it wasn't because of the formation. So to continue about the question, then, uh, another uh, formation, but this time I was like, okay, I want to be formed in Python. I have some basis. And that actually help because when you have basis in code, you can join formation that ask for people that needs some background at least a bit. And, uh, I, I did join this formation, so I did the test to prove that I had some understanding of code. And I can assure you that even if you don't have any understanding of code, you will see the code and you will understand, because that's not that difficult. So but it's it's like, uh, yeah. You take off a lot of people that don't there because they're like, I don't know, code. So I did join affirmation about, uh, artificial intelligence at the time. Uh, and for six months, this formation, uh, was very nice because we didn't follow our courses. It it was more like, we we give us some project and then you work on it, and if you want to work more, you can work more and learn more. And if you don't work and just do the minimum, it's also good.

OLIVIER: 16:11

So important. Uh, and so it's, it's not just for, not just for women, but for anyone, uh, learning, uh, having room for, for, for for personal improvements on your project or personal personal input is very, very important and very, very interesting because that's where you learn the most, most things. We have another we have another question in the chat about, uh, trainings, uh, like that. And uh, you have answered already. But there is I would like to insist on that. Um, so, do you know cheat codes? I don't I don't know if you do. Uh, what do you think about that kind of training aimed only for women? So...

CAMILLE: 16:47

We know that we have very different opinions about this. So I know how you dislike that. You have to pick a side.

OLIVIER: 16:57

Okay. So we have two big opinions there. And then you choose which one we we select.

CAMILLE: 17:02

You have to...

MORGANE: 17:04

Okay.

OLIVIER: 17:05

So could you explain.

CAMILLE: 17:06

I do think that as we said the those kind of opportunities are less presented to women. And it can be intimidating. We are lucky enough to have some positive stories, both about, uh, our education, except for the first formation you talked about and our job. This is not always the case. Far from that. And I have some pretty horrific stories. From the girls I used to go to school with and from my about my own experience, because I was offered a job without even an interview, because I was a woman, and this job wanted to have as close as a parity as possible.

OLIVIER: 17:42

That's really a problem.

CAMILLE: 17:43

And that's a real problem. And I feel like those formation, because this context is very scary and very imposter filling inducing. And I feel that like those formations aimed directly at women could handle this kind of problems, could handle this kind of confusion and stress that's linked directly to being a woman in tech. Address them, and also maybe resort to a kind of teaching that would be more suited for, uh, persons who have not been logical, oriented from the very beginning, like boys can be in a gendered education. So I think this is good as long as the formation is of quality.

OLIVIER: 18:21

So as you said earlier, it is a matter of taking the people in the society they're they're in and just be like, okay, uh, adapting the way the training is made might be useful to get more people on board because they the society didn't didn't teach them by default, I would say, to think as they need to think when they're developing something.

CAMILLE: 18:42

Or maybe just assume that, uh, having a different look on things and on this kind of problems can be a plus and can actually be a strength that you might be able to bring into the company you go in. And I think it's really good to see that and to take care of that and to take people where they are. Completing with actually the fact that you don't see a lot of women represented and seeing a bunch of them at the same place doing the same thing, which is like a challenge. I think it's really good. And it can it can really be...

OLIVIER: 19:13

There could be an appealing side to, to saying, okay, I'm going to be like in a in a group of, I don't know, 30, 40 women that are...

CAMILLE: 19:20

This girl that comes into the computer science room and everybody looks at her.

OLIVIER: 19:24

Going to be the weird, uh, the weird, the weird thing, you know? All this exists. Okay, indeed.

CAMILLE: 19:30

I'm strongly for it.

OLIVIER: 19:32

I have the other opinion now.

MORGANE: 19:35

So for me, there are a lot of major problems. First, I mean, it's unfair. Positive discrimination is discrimination. You can't say this formation is for women only, because where do you draw the line at once? People allow it to to go into that formation. Uh, and I mean, if you give a formation because that formation is useful, why shouldn't there be, uh, the same formation for men at the same time? Because this I wouldn't mind if when you are doing a formation for women, then you have exactly the same formation for others. Okay, that at least it's fair. But then there is another problem that would rise. I mean, we know statistically that there are less women, uh, in dev, meaning that if you have these two formation, you have the first one, you know, you need to complete with only women and the other one with everyone that wants it. That means that you will actually need more women.

OLIVIER: 20:29

So you could refuse men because there is no more room for them, but there is room for...

MORGANE: 20:33

They could refuse men and they could take women just because they need to complete the formation. You won't make a formation for only two women, because then you will have to pay the teachers and things like that. This means that at some point you will lower the the default. Uh, well, not the default entry, but.

OLIVIER: 20:53

The, the level.

MORGANE: 20:54

The level. You have to lower the level. Like, I know one of this kind of formation, the entry level for the woman formation is being able to boot on your computer. I mean, isn't that insulting?

MAURINE: 21:06

Oh. Pardon me. What the fuck?

OLIVIER: 21:07

That's a lot.

MORGANE: 21:08

That's awful. And so. Yeah. And once you are in one of these, uh, woman formation and this I talk, I'm more talking about personal experience from my first formation. You are like, okay, they are taking me because I am a woman and I need to complete a quota. And as someone that has a very low self-confidence, this is destructive, uh, because at some point you are like, in fact, I can't code. I am just doing what they want me to do. And I am just one of the girls they want to code. Uh, but maybe it's not me because these men are succeeding. But it's not the same scale. Because you are expecting things for the man from the other formation and us because we need to have a lower entry level. Because, you know, we are just girls. That's awful. How could you do that? I mean, if I want to do a formation, I want it to be with the same scale of women. If I want to be hired, I want to be hired for my skills, not because I am a woman. I don't want to be accepted into a formation because I am a woman. I want to be accepted into a formation because I have the skills and I have the capabilities.

OLIVIER: 22:15

I think the big difference between between both of your point of views because, uh, the the goal, I think you agree. Uh, honestly, uh, but I think the big difference is really, uh, in in the faith you have that doing a formation just for a woman wouldn't, would or would or wouldn't have side effects that are really unwanted, actually. Uh.

MAURINE: 22:33

So you have to choose a side. Yeah.

OLIVIER: 22:35

Which one do we pick? Uh.

CAMILLE: 22:37

I would be in the middle because I would say it depends. I mean, I can agree with the fact, uh, to have just, uh, formation for women only, but what will happen when they come into the workplace and see a lot of men? It will be a shock for them, maybe. And they don't.

OLIVIER: 22:55

I think it depends on the reason why we. Well, we or someone we supposedly did, uh, this training only for women. Uh, if the idea was okay, some of them will not, uh, will have to to, to learn another way of seeing, seeing things to have this logical spirit. Uh, you were, you were talking about, uh, uh, if it's for that. Well, no problem. If it's more like, ah, we want to put them between women because we are with men socially, it will be complicated to be in the group with, uh, uh, only men around and so on. Indeed. It's just pushing back the problem. Uh, on the other hand, when they finish the studies training, whatever the format of that thing is, uh, they will know that programming is their thing and that they, they want to work in it. So for self-confidence, it would be better, I guess.

CAMILLE: 23:46

And you would feel more legitimate if were you to continue in another formation, which is not, uh, separated.

MORGANE: 23:53

Oh. Can you.

CAMILLE: 23:55

Yeah. So were you to start the formation in which you have been only with women, and you were in a safe space to say so you will. The lack of self-confidence would maybe be more.

MORGANE: 24:09

Because I don't join a formation to make friends. I join a formation to learn. And so I want the the learning course to be as hard as it needs to be.

CAMILLE: 24:20

And I think making the assumption because you've had the bad examples and I'm sorry for you about that, that affirmation to oriented towards women is a bad one, or requires less skills, or will end up being of a lesser quality, is something that should be broken.

MORGANE: 24:38

Yeah, of course, but I mean, I know that some of the information are good, are kinda good because I think, yeah, I'm sorry, I won't indulge on that. Uh, because because for me, the formation like the second one I do, I did where, uh, the more you work, the more you learn. Yeah. For instance, this formation, either it's only girls or not, it will be the same result. But the thing is, when you are teaching like that, you are teaching by group. And if you are taking anyone just because they are girls on these groups, you will have some people that maybe it's not their thing and you have to work in formation.

CAMILLE: 25:18

In my bachelor, we were like 150 at the start and we ended up being a bit less than 30 getting our diplomas.

MORGANE: 25:24

Yeah, but when you have exactly two same formation, but one that takes every woman, that's just is a slightly bit interested. And the other ones are they were entry level, I assure you. Go to the entry level ones

MAURINE: 25:38

You take... Whoever asked this question, you take the one you like best.

MORGANE: 25:42

I mean, if you feel that you need a formation with girls only, I mean, I won't judge you for that because. No, because if you need it and if it helps you, okay. Because you will put the the energy to learn for it and to grow yourself. But the thing is, I am pretty sure you would have learned maybe the same things in the others, and for you it would be the same because you put the energy. So girls that are mean to do code, if they are in this kind of formation, will learn because they want to learn.

OLIVIER: 26:14

Yes. Okay. Uh, I'm sorry, I'm cutting you a little bit because we are we are getting to, to to the end of the episode just to, uh, give a little, uh, uh, clarification. Uh, we use the word formation a few times, and I was told in the chat that actually in English it's not correct. So it's sorry, we meant training. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

MAURINE: 26:32

Uh, formation is very correct.

OLIVIER: 26:36

Uh, so, so just to be clear and be sure that everybody got what we meant. Um, uh, as a conclusion, I would like to ask one last, uh, question. Um, the the, uh, I'm sorry, because there's something popping in the chat just now, so. Yeah.

MORGANE: 26:52

And just something interesting because the formation that did go just like yesterday, I received an email, which is, for me, one of the solution we were I talk about and I forget now, uh, they are putting in place a system of mentorship with mentee and so it's better.

MAURINE: 27:11

Yeah.

MORGANE: 27:12

And so you can ask a developer, just sign in and say, okay, I want to mentor a mentee just to teach, uh, that that person that it's okay. But then it's the same formation as everyone. But if the woman needs it, she can get a mentor. And for me, this is a solution.

OLIVIER: 27:30

This brings us near to what I was I was about to talk about. So I'm going to jump right on it. Uh, um, wouldn't that be? Also, wouldn't a solution also be to, to have like to, to increase parity? I mean, and to, to just have like the more comfortable size and reassuring actually side of, of, of, you know, um, uh to to to to give a better view, a better image of, of the job. Uh, um, wouldn't there be the need to be some to have some kind of ambassadors, uh, that would like, you know, big figure about big figures, figures. So female here, that would be, you know, put in front a little bit and so that you can say, okay, I'm a woman. I see that woman there. Uh, she's been she's she's she's, she's, she's been to my, to my school to teach us about, uh, programming. She's been there to talk about Odoo, whatever, uh, and just have, you know, big figures like that that are so 50/50 men, women. And that would improve things as well, I think, because it's just projecting another image, a whole different image of the job, actually.

MAURINE: 28:34

Yeah.

CAMILLE: 28:35

Representation is super important. And the fact that we do exist in and of itself all is already something that can help. Uh, my sister learned what job I was making, and right now she is starting to to see if it fits her. I don't think she would have had this idea had we not discussed it. And I think you had a similar experience.

MORGANE: 28:55

Yeah, I have an acquaintance that also start learning, like just recently, and she loves it very much. But I think that if I wasn't a developer, she would never have thought of doing it either because I talk with her and same as me. She said, yeah, we know like, uh, rationally, but the job could be, uh, done, but by women. But we never did. The link with this job can be done by women with I can do it because it just takes a huge jump there because we. In the social bias, we see that developers are men, and so we don't think, oh, maybe we should do it. And same as. Yeah.

OLIVIER: 29:35

So one word of advice could be if you're a developer and you're a woman and you have friends around you that could be interested, make sure that they're not actually, uh, because, uh, well, ask them actually, uh, and talk about it. Talk about it, uh, because maybe they just don't really know the job, and they don't really realize that they could perfectly do do it. And there's no, no reason. Uh, uh, so that will be our final word today. Uh, thank you for the whole discussion. I think it was really nice. Great. Uh, come back in time. Uh uh, thank you to the viewers, uh, as well. And see you next month for another episode.

MAURINE: 30:14

Thank you. Bye.

CAMILLE: 30:15

Thank you.

OLIVIER: 30:15

And that's a wrap for today's episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If so, don't hesitate to join us on Twitch next time. Having you on the live to interact with us would be awesome! The video of our discussion is also available on YouTube, so it would be nice if you could go there and hit the like button. And if you want to stay with us longer, we have dozens of other podcast episodes available. Until next time. Cheers!